permutations

[quote="tranquil1ty"]

EonStarwolf++ wrote: I guess it's because I'm doing senior maths and I've been taught to just "accept the formula".

Yes this is off topic, but the mathematician in me cannot help myself.

What a shame you are doing senior maths and have not been taught to appreciate the beauty of the subject. Mathematics is the science of patterns, that is what we do, find patterns and from that come up with formulas and methods that save time.

There is a difference between doing and learning.

[quote="tranquil1ty"]

simmonsn wrote:

tranquil1ty wrote:

EonStarwolf++ wrote: I guess it's because I'm doing senior maths and I've been taught to just "accept the formula".

Yes this is off topic, but the mathematician in me cannot help myself.

What a shame you are doing senior maths and have not been taught to appreciate the beauty of the subject. Mathematics is the science of patterns, that is what we do, find patterns and from that come up with formulas and methods that save time.

There is a difference between doing and learning.

There's also a difference between assuming and knowing. I never said I wasn't learning. There are some things in extension/2 that I can't explain because I don't have the knowledge. I just have to accept it.

I.e. in Probability, the round table scenario is stupid and makes no sense at all, but I have to accept it or get the question wrong.

Oh well, just wait till we get to teach it to you, hopefully the clouds will part and sense will be had (that's the plan anyway)

Better stop this as now we really are off topic.

P.S. The difference between the circle and the line.

people arrange themselves in a line (lines have a definite starting point and so every position can be defined, start, one position to the right of start, etc). First person has then n different defined positions to choose, second (n -1) and so on. Total arrangements = n X (n-1) X (n-2) X ...X 1 = n!

people arrange themselves in a circle (circles have no definite starting point) First person has one position to choose (ie go sit in the circle), once the first person sits down then the other seats can now be defined, two seats to the left of the first person, etc and so the second person has (n - 1) definable positions. Total arrangements 1 X (n-1) X (n-2) X...X 1 = (n-1)!

How is that for off topic !!!!!

Let us now never speak of it again.

[quote="simmonsn"]

tranquil1ty wrote:

simmonsn wrote:

tranquil1ty wrote:

EonStarwolf++ wrote: I guess it's because I'm doing senior maths and I've been taught to just "accept the formula".

Yes this is off topic, but the mathematician in me cannot help myself.

What a shame you are doing senior maths and have not been taught to appreciate the beauty of the subject. Mathematics is the science of patterns, that is what we do, find patterns and from that come up with formulas and methods that save time.

There is a difference between doing and learning.

There's also a difference between assuming and knowing. I never said I wasn't learning. There are some things in extension/2 that I can't explain because I don't have the knowledge. I just have to accept it.

I.e. in Probability, the round table scenario is stupid and makes no sense at all, but I have to accept it or get the question wrong.

Oh well, just wait till we get to teach it to you, hopefully the clouds will part and sense will be had (that's the plan anyway)

Better stop this as now we really are off topic.

P.S. The difference between the circle and the line.

people arrange themselves in a line (lines have a definite starting point and so every position can be defined, start, one position to the right of start, etc). First person has then n different defined positions to choose, second (n -1) and so on. Total arrangements = n X (n-1) X (n-2) X ...X 1 = n!

people arrange themselves in a circle (circles have no definite starting point) First person has one position to choose (ie go sit in the circle), once the first person sits down then the other seats can now be defined, two seats to the left of the first person, etc and so the second person has (n - 1) definable positions. Total arrangements 1 X (n-1) X (n-2) X...X 1 = (n-1)!

How is that for off topic !!!!!

Let us now never speak of it again.

am i the only one who is utterly confused

[quote="kappy"]

simmonsn wrote:

tranquil1ty wrote:

simmonsn wrote:

tranquil1ty wrote:

EonStarwolf++ wrote: I guess it's because I'm doing senior maths and I've been taught to just "accept the formula".

Yes this is off topic, but the mathematician in me cannot help myself.

What a shame you are doing senior maths and have not been taught to appreciate the beauty of the subject. Mathematics is the science of patterns, that is what we do, find patterns and from that come up with formulas and methods that save time.

There is a difference between doing and learning.

There's also a difference between assuming and knowing. I never said I wasn't learning. There are some things in extension/2 that I can't explain because I don't have the knowledge. I just have to accept it.

I.e. in Probability, the round table scenario is stupid and makes no sense at all, but I have to accept it or get the question wrong.

Oh well, just wait till we get to teach it to you, hopefully the clouds will part and sense will be had (that's the plan anyway)

Better stop this as now we really are off topic.

P.S. The difference between the circle and the line.

people arrange themselves in a line (lines have a definite starting point and so every position can be defined, start, one position to the right of start, etc). First person has then n different defined positions to choose, second (n -1) and so on. Total arrangements = n X (n-1) X (n-2) X ...X 1 = n!

people arrange themselves in a circle (circles have no definite starting point) First person has one position to choose (ie go sit in the circle), once the first person sits down then the other seats can now be defined, two seats to the left of the first person, etc and so the second person has (n - 1) definable positions. Total arrangements 1 X (n-1) X (n-2) X...X 1 = (n-1)!

How is that for off topic !!!!!

Let us now never speak of it again.

am i the only one which is utterly confused

Yes.

IMO, when you can take a shortcut, take it. It saves alot of time. The only time you should learn how to prove a formula is when it actually gets your marks. Otherwise, it's basically worthless.

[quote="simmonsn"]

tranquil1ty wrote:

simmonsn wrote:

tranquil1ty wrote:

EonStarwolf++ wrote: I guess it's because I'm doing senior maths and I've been taught to just "accept the formula".

Yes this is off topic, but the mathematician in me cannot help myself.

What a shame you are doing senior maths and have not been taught to appreciate the beauty of the subject. Mathematics is the science of patterns, that is what we do, find patterns and from that come up with formulas and methods that save time.

There is a difference between doing and learning.

There's also a difference between assuming and knowing. I never said I wasn't learning. There are some things in extension/2 that I can't explain because I don't have the knowledge. I just have to accept it.

I.e. in Probability, the round table scenario is stupid and makes no sense at all, but I have to accept it or get the question wrong.

Oh well, just wait till we get to teach it to you, hopefully the clouds will part and sense will be had (that's the plan anyway)

Better stop this as now we really are off topic.

P.S. The difference between the circle and the line.

people arrange themselves in a line (lines have a definite starting point and so every position can be defined, start, one position to the right of start, etc). First person has then n different defined positions to choose, second (n -1) and so on. Total arrangements = n X (n-1) X (n-2) X ...X 1 = n!

people arrange themselves in a circle (circles have no definite starting point) First person has one position to choose (ie go sit in the circle), once the first person sits down then the other seats can now be defined, two seats to the left of the first person, etc and so the second person has (n - 1) definable positions. Total arrangements 1 X (n-1) X (n-2) X...X 1 = (n-1)!

How is that for off topic !!!!!

Let us now never speak of it again.

Well I think I deserve a chance to explain myself. I know how the circle works, but it is non-sensical in that it does not work in a real life scenario.

Okay, We have 4 tables in B11 (real life scenario).

We have persons A B C D to sit in one of four seats. Okay let's say one seat is next to a window (top right), another is next to the teacher's desk (top left), the next is next to the wall (bottom left) and the final desk is in front of the air con. (bottom right)

According to that formula, there will be (n-1)! ways, I.e. 3! = 6 ways.

Okay, according to PURE LOGIC. let's go back to this real life example.
If we put person A next to the window (top left) and then everyone else sits in a circle from there, we have ONE arrangement. In real life, that set-up would be completely different to if I shifted everyone one seat clockwise as they are SITTING IN NEW POSITIONS.

I know you will say something along the lines of "but in mathematics it's the same because they are next to and opposite the same people" but me being someone of LOGIC, I say it's NOT.

Now as you can see, I must accept the formula.

And FYI, I already know the formula for a round table/set-up.

You probably took my first statement waaaay too seriously. And to reassure you, I am not an idiot (that's probably what you think). I know what you are talking about, I know you can prove formulas, but what I'M saying, is that some things are non-sensical from a STUDENT'S perspective. Think what you want, but whatever.

.... Yes thai. <_<

My head hurts.

This is why I am only doing 2 units.

Thai and Mr Simmons are on a completely different level here guys, I don't think we have any idea of what's going on =S

Okay, according to PURE LOGIC. let's go back to this real life example.
If we put person A next to the window (top left) and then everyone else sits in a circle from there, we have ONE arrangement. In real life, that set-up would be completely different to if I shifted everyone one seat clockwise as they are SITTING IN NEW POSITIONS.

I knew I shouldn't have started this, I've broken my own rule.

However you have hit the nail on the head without realising it.

We are interested in the number of ARRANGEMENTS not the number of POSITIONS.

Different positions can be the same arrangements.

Good on you for defending your position, there is nothing better than to see passion for learning. Well done!

Anyway, I better get back to checking out this forum

Heyyy, didn't we kinda learn about this with Mrs Cook?

Yeaaah, guess I suck at trying to say what I want to say on the internet. Mehh. What I was trying to say I guess, is some things appear to be complicated because it doesn't make sense to the students, and you gotta accept it persay until you get it. Okay I'll just shut up now 'cause I dunno how to word this.

Didn't stop it sounding freaking impressive.

*Claps*

simmonsn wrote:

Okay, according to PURE LOGIC. let's go back to this real life example.
If we put person A next to the window (top left) and then everyone else sits in a circle from there, we have ONE arrangement. In real life, that set-up would be completely different to if I shifted everyone one seat clockwise as they are SITTING IN NEW POSITIONS.

I knew I shouldn't have started this, I've broken my own rule.

However you have hit the nail on the head without realising it.

We are interested in the number of ARRANGEMENTS not the number of POSITIONS.

Different positions can be the same arrangements.

Good on you for defending your position, there is nothing better than to see passion for learning. Well done!

Anyway, I better get back to checking out this forum

Yeah, I know I got it myself, but it just explains what I said in my previous post if you know what I mean. When you first get to the topic, (students) dont seem to get it because of what I said, but obviously it's all logical in the end.

Arghhh, I dunno anymore. I'm terrible at maths alright guys? I can't do maths, I'm doing year 12 because I'm an idiot and etc I'm going to suck at senior maths in our school. The teachers know I suck, everyone knows I suck. I know I suck. I can't do maths. I just accept formulae without knowing anything else. I'm basically the worst at maths, and yeah whatever.. I just wanna be left in peace to do my assignment

You've got 10 marbles and 5 bags. The marbles are labelled 1 to 10 and the bags are labelled A to E. When you put the marbles in each bag, they must be in 2s or 3s, so you can't have just 1 marble in the bag or something. How many ways can you put the marbles in the bags? XD

Sp3000 wrote:You've got 10 marbles and 5 bags. The marbles are labelled 1 to 10 and the bags are labelled A to E. When you put the marbles in each bag, they must be in 2s or 3s, so you can't have just 1 marble in the bag or something. How many ways can you put the marbles in the bags? XD

Ummmm...... off-topic much? This topic was a response to something else. And I'm sorry Mr. I am so great at maths.

Maths teacher + Thai = Nooo

Maths teacher + Thai + Liang = Tremendous overkill

sandyra wrote:Heyyy, didn't we kinda learn about this with Mrs Cook?

Yep, but none of us really got it

Chris understands all about permutations

EonStarwolf++ wrote:Maths teacher + Thai = Nooo

Maths teacher + Thai + Liang = Tremendous overkill

Meh, I do it all the time with my smart uncle. (Lol, injoke). Life is no fun without arguments

perms and combs are stupid.

Sp3000 wrote:Chris understands all about permutations

Not really, maybe very basic ones

5th class right here guys. heh...you've lost me..

chrisk wrote:

Sp3000 wrote:Chris understands all about permutations

Not really, maybe very basic ones

Probability isn't hard. I dunno why so many people suck at it.

tranquil1ty wrote:

chrisk wrote:

Sp3000 wrote:Chris understands all about permutations

Not really, maybe very basic ones

Probability isn't hard. I dunno why so many people suck at it.

Because the result isn't definite? I don't know. I think it's just the methods that can confuse people. I'm pretty good with probability - maybe I should become an actuary?

NSiriwardena wrote:

tranquil1ty wrote:

chrisk wrote:

Sp3000 wrote:Chris understands all about permutations

Not really, maybe very basic ones

Probability isn't hard. I dunno why so many people suck at it.

Because the result isn't definite? I don't know. I think it's just the methods that can confuse people. I'm pretty good with probability - maybe I should become an actuary?

The questions are tricky... that's about it. And also, people are too lazy to draw diagrams. They seem to magically make seeing the solution a lot easier (perms is just playing with factorials imo).